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Is the theory on chakras really inconvenient for people working with kundalini?
Master Osho says that chakras exist because the process of energy in the individual realm is not enough clean. That the function of chakras is to process such an energy. So the number of chakras as well as their location, colors, and so on, vary from individual to individual. This view sounds interesting but a little bothering for those following a given framework. He speaks also of imaginary chakras that are created with mind power (a maya expression) by those who use imaginery instead of feeling...
I don't know if he is taking things sensu strictori or just rhetorical. Is there someone who can comment?
Osho: Meditación: el arte del éxtasis, capítulo 6.
I don't know if he is taking things sensu strictori or just rhetorical. Is there someone who can comment?
Osho: Meditación: el arte del éxtasis, capítulo 6.
Tags: chakras, kundalini, osho
Views: 35
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Rohit Sharma on -
Namaste Eduardo Mendoza,
First of all i would like to thank Sukhdev for inviting me to this place, now coming back to the topic of CHAKRA.
I would try to be simple in my words to explain.
You have a vehicle which is mechanical and for the movements its requires gears so that it is smooth, what happens when the gears are worn out, there is trouble in the proper functioning of the vihicle.
This is the concept of chakra, there are 7/11 major chakras and around 122 minor chakra in the human energy body which helps in the daily activity of the physical body and keep it clean.
It is not that Chakras clean the energy that is coming they are not FILTERS, but what ever energy is coming it takes that and try to run the physical body.
Now tell me if you imagine that your vehicle which is a SKODA have a gear or a BMW, would that be possible, so in the same way MAYA does not effect on the existence or increasing or decreasing the number of CHAKRA in the energy body.
The counts remains the same till the soul gets salvation.
Would like to know if there is something that i missed out.
May GOD bless everyone with the knowledge of DIVINE
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Permalink Reply by Eduardo Mendoza on
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Namaste Rohit Sharma.
Pretty thanks for your answer.
It is said that the more clean or sound a kundalini process, the less noisy. Osho says that chakras and kundalini do not have to be approached to with a given theoretical framework in order for a person to feel (purify, activate, raise, etc) them. Because when having in mind a scheme, you find this scheme, and if this scheme is not the real in your case, you create it (a fake one, a double) with the power of your mind. For me it was (is) difficult to understand how it is possible to meditate without a minimal theory for all what we do, observe, say contains some theory, belive you or not; want you or not. And if someone says that "just feeling is the key", there is the possibility of no perceiving because the process should be silent, otherwise, it is a clue that you have to work more. Osho has a kind of meditation called 'dynamic meditation' and I wanted to know (I do not follow DM) if in the practice of this sort, such a principle is observed, or you sooner or later fall in imaginery (and of course in a given personal theoretical framework).
This was all my doubt.
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Permalink Reply by Kulananda on -
Ther are many books on kundalini written by yoga masters and some western adepts. Read the ones by the yoga masters first. I suggest Swami Vishnudevanandas early book on yoga, he has a whole section on chakras; read Kundalini Tantra by Satyananda Saraswati or Theory of the Chakras by Hiroshi Motoyama. Osho is to obscure for me to understand. I thnk that many people get confused in that they think they have awakened a chakra or kundalini when they have not. from my experiences and reading their are pseudo signs of kundalini awakening and chakra awakening. pseudo may lead to real awakening, it is a process. LIke if someone gives you money to start a bank account so that one day you can be rich and retire. IT is foolish to think that since you have a little money you are rich and can and retire ; one foolishly quites ones job and then ends up spending all the money and has to go back ot work again. IT is similar for kundalini awakening. I f we pracitce and respect the path and honor the gurus we will end up rich with kundalini and "inherit the fathers kingdom" full enlightment. Until then it is illusory.
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Permalink Reply by Eduardo Mendoza on
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Namaste Sw. Kulananda. Thanks for your view. You are right. Experience and the light of Masters and reaserchers are the best path for building criteria.
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Permalink Reply by Satyamitra on -
What Osho said above, is not "obscure", it is absolutely out of range, it is far out, it is marvellous. I had never read this before, having rearly read a lot of his books, but for me it sounds right.
He had his insights about kundalini not from Hatha Yoga. He knew a lot about this, you can read about this in "the search of the miraculous", talkings in the years where he himself did some Kundalini-Workshops.
It is just, that he did not get kundalini from Hatha Yoga, it just happened to him. I would say, he was a walking kundalini (saw him personally).
His insights were so high that nearly no one could understand. I hope now the time is coming for some people to understand...
Master Osho says that chakras exist because the process of energy in the individual realm is not enough clean.................
Yes, but in whom this "process of energy" is rearly clean? Thats why chakras are seen, in different personal colours, this sounds absolutely logical.
Satyamitra
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Permalink Reply by Peter Beacham (Sankar) on
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The best commentary on Chakras that I have seen is Merging With Shiva by Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami. He details both the commonly known seven Chakas from Mulahdhara to Sahasrara and also the lower seven Chakras or Talas below the Muladhara that comprise our animal nature and in which most people live. He refers to the seven Chakras above the Sahasrara.
I usually do not comment on the quality of someone's spiritual teacher with one exception-and that exception is Osho AKA Shree Rajneesh. This was a person who was completely corrupted by his premature involvement with Kundalini and drugs before he had resolved his prannic and Chakra imbalances. He was and still is a danger to the unsuspecting.
Osho, AKA Sri Rajneesh, began his career preaching free love. Rajneesh came to the U.S. in 1981 to escape income tax evasion charges in India. He lasted only five years in the U.S. before being arrested while attempting to flee that U.S. and was deported in 1986 after pleading 'no contest' to immigration charges. He was charged with one count of criminal conspiracy (RICO), and 34 counts of making false statements to federal (INS) officers. He plea bargained down to the 'no contest' admission on 2 of the 34 counts and was given a 10-year suspended sentence on condition of not returning to the U.S. for five years.
Just before being deported from the U.S. in the 80's his ashram was patrolled by armed guards; he and his followers were involved in the attempted murder of the Oregon state attorney that was investigating the Rajneesh organization; they poisoned the food in 10 restaurants and 750 people became ill in an attempt to incapacitate voters so that the Rajneesh slate could win an election. By 1985 many of his most trusted aides had abandoned the movement, which was under investigation for multiple felonies including arson, attempted murder, drug smuggling, and vote fraud in the nearby town of Antelope.
Rajneesh's corporations were ordered to pay $400,000 to the state of Oregon in compensation for investigative costs, $500,000 to settle claims of the restaurants that suffered losses due to poisonings, an additional $400,000 to the restaurant owners, $5 million to the Oregon state victim fund, to sell the ranch and to waive all claims to money and jewels impounded when he was finally arrested in North Carolina.
When in 1985 Rajneesh pleaded guilty to immigration fraud and was deported from the U.S he was refused entry by 21 countries before a settlement was reached on the outstanding income tax evasion charges in India and he returned to Pune to set up another compound patrolled by armed guards.
Rajneesh's followers did not fare too well either. Ma Ananda Sheela, Rajneesh's personal secretary and top aide, was convicted of masterminding the plot to poison 750 people in the The Dalles, Oregon in the bizarre attempt to incapacitate voters so that a Rajneesh slate could be elected.
For the attempted murder of Charles Turner, Oregon U.S. Attorney, seven of Rajneesh's followers were indicted, six were convicted and the other was able to avoid extradition from Europe.
Two of Rajneesh's followers convicted in the attempted murder of Turner were also convicted of wire-tapping along with 14 other of Rajneesh's followers. Another five are at large.
Rajneesh was a drug addict who was addicted to Valium and who inhaled nitrous oxide both of which seriously impaired his judgment.
These facts about Rajneesh and his followers are all a matter of public record - along with their mug shots.
By the late 80's, AIDS came on the scene, so Rajneesh renamed himself Osho, gave up on his free love doctrine and began to preach a perverted version of Buddhism. He died mysteriously in 1990 and many say that he was poisoned by his senior followers so that they could control his many products worth millions annually.
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Permalink Reply by Kulananda on
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Ahhh the play of shakti. There are many teachers who have controversial things surrounding them. Rajneesh is certainly one of them. From the worldly standpoint things like this are shocking. From the absolute point of view it is just the "play of consciousness". I still struggle with these dualistist ideas. I think and feel that if we give up our Self to follow any "teacher" or "Guru" that is a false path. And that is the lesson for those who do. Eventually I hope they turn within and find the Sat (true) Guru. All major philosophies and yogas tell one to turn within and rely on ones inner Self etc. Choosing a teacher or master to help us is a tricky subject. One way is to obseve the students. If they represent what you admire then thats one good indication that the teacher may be for you. Also study and practice for one year with intensity with any teaching, then evaluate onself etc. I left more than one organization for numerous reasons. I am better for it and learned alot though those paths were not for me.
Worship the Kundalini Within, That is the Guru, That is the Self.
- Avadhuti Yoga Sangha
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Permalink Reply by Peter Beacham (Sankar) on
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Someone is not a Guru if they seek political power by poisoning voters, commiting arson and killing government officials. Someone is not a Guru if they hid behind armed guards and amass very large amounts of money for their personal use. That someone was Rajneesh.
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Permalink Reply by Satyamitra on
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"This was a person who was completely corrupted by his premature involvement with Kundalini and drugs before he had resolved his prannic and Chakra imbalances. He was and still is a danger to the unsuspecting."
I am sorry, but this is absolute nonsense!
Yes, some things above might be true, as you (Peter) wrote, but he was not a drug addict....he did not even drink tee or coffee!!!
And he could not prevent all these things happening, thats right, but you can not state he knew of all this before it came out. And that he was poisoned by the american state government in prison....and not by his followers....to bring an evidence is difficult, I am not sure about this....You see what other impression only this little corrections give.
And one other thing: There are things, that only his closest sannyasins, those who loved him, could see: He was a man equal in consciousness to Gautam Buddha and Jesus, maybe even higher than Jesus!
There are thousands or even hundredthousands of people which can reassure that and I can and have to attest to this, having been around him. You could say I must have been very blind and stupid .. But: have you seen him eyes to eyes? Or have you seen him and did not recognize him? That would be a shame for you...
So you see, these things cannot be discussed ...
Agreeing with Kulanda...Osho is not my Guru. The true Guru is inside...but when it is time to find the inner, it reflects on seeing someone outside, too. Thats miraculous...
Satyamitra
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Permalink Reply by Peter Beacham (Sankar) on
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Why would the Americans poison Shree Rajneesh? He paid all his fines, his 'ashram' was dissolved, his followers were in jail for the crimes they committed and he was deported. He was no longer significant to the Americans. It is much more likely that Rajneesh was poisoned by his own inner circle so that they could control his name and works and the millions of dollars they generate. Incidentally, one wonders how'Osho' could write so many books since he died. Maybe those drugs he was addicted to helped.
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Permalink Reply by Satyamitra on
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Osho never intended to write a book, he was against it.
It is not "alive" enough to him, it is something dead.
What is gathered in these hundreds of books are only his talks.
Reading these is enough to be convinced of his extraordinary state of awareness for me, if one is not, it is just not the time for one to understand ...
Lets see an example:
There is a question about kundalini, I think it fits into the discussion-theme of this thread, and lets see his answer.
IN SEARCH OF THE MIRACULOUS, Vol.II S.258
The Question: It is said that when the kundalini awakens it eats the flesh and drinks the blood. What does that mean?
Answer from OSHO (only an extract):
"When the kundalini rises there will be a complete change in your body. In that transformation your flesh may decrease and so also your blood, but it will decrease strictly to your requirements. So the body will be completely transformed. Only as much flesh and blood as is necessary for the body will remain; the rest will be burnt away. Then only will you feel light; then only you will be able to fly in the inner sky. This will be the difference.
What has been said is correct. The meditator has to have a special diet and a special arrangement for living, or else he will find himself in difficulties.
...
Therefore (and being my own experience I state this as true/ Satyamitra), the personality should be very harmonious and some channels of juicy qualities should be developed. For instance, take an angry person: if his kundalini awakens he will find himself in difficulty. He is a dry and course person, so if a fire should burn within him he will be in trouble.
A loving person has a deep chemical harmony. There is a smoothness of chemical harmony within him. He will not be aversely affected by the awakening of kundalini..."
end of exert
So one can see, the ability to love has to be developed together with kundalini. Thats most important to prevent those difficulties.
Satyamitra
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Permalink Reply by Eduardo Mendoza on
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Namaste, Dear Friends.
In the Western style of thinking there is a figure called AD HOMINEM which is considered to be a fallacy, a sophism. It consists for a thesis to be appraised not by the thesis itself but by a feature linked someway to his/her proposer. We commit an ad hominem when, for instance, in discussing the strengths of the Osho’s thesis related to the (non) convenience of a theoretical framework for chakras and Kundalini management, someone points at the fact that Osho’s behavior was such and such, so his utterances whatsoever are deprived of value.
Is our dear Peter Beacham suspicious of Ad Hominem? I do not think so. Or at least, such an 'ad hominem' does not work as a fallacy in this context. In the framework we are dealing with I think it is pertaining to introduce the living-source of a corpus of doctrine (in this case Osho), specially when claiming to be an enlightened master; but we have to be cautious when arriving to conclusions.
It is pertaining I say, because one thing is a piece of speech elaborated by intellectual means and another, one from an enlightened mind; both interpreting and developing the personal's and fellow's experience. Moreover, Mother Kundalini is said (Gopi Krishna) to be responsible not only of biological, physiological changes but of genious both intellectual and spiritual, and not only focused in a given person but of the whole humankind.
We have to be cautious, I say, because it is not intelligent, it does not suffice to apply to a spiritual master the rationale we do to any other person. As being ‘Kundalini awakening’ not just a personal development phenomenon but a cosmic one; and ‘enlightenment’, a kundalini related process, an enlightened master is expected to be thought as an instrument of an evolutionary process, a living factor. He or she is not suposed to behave the way one expects. A spiritual master is not an easy matter to treat. We usually expect such and such characteristics of one of these beings but they are usually not available the way we would like. So we get disappointed. A master is a paradoxical being. The Master-Disciple relationship is one of the experiences that yoguis have to work hard from the intellect and the enlightenment. In a nutshell: in the ethic realm we risk of being shortsighting or farsighting.
By the way, I am not related to Osho’s orb. I have not participated in any of his seminars, workshops or retreats. I know him just through the study of a few books of his authorship. They have made me to think of him as a great thinker for he permits us clear some thesis that one usually has hard time to realize.
Through his writings Osho has helped yoghis to understand things which other way are truly obscure.
What Peter Beacham says is probably true. I have read ‘El Rebelde’ and another book called ‘Guerra Bacteriológica’ where some of his utterances are recorded. But I repeat: the lives of many spiritual Masters (Ramakrishna, Osho, Sai Baba, and so on) are hard, paradoxical, counter common sense.
Moreover, taking the statement of the parallels of Osho and Christ at facevalue, as it is elaborated by his disciples, could cause a smile to some of us, specially when we catch that the intention is identifying them. It is so hard specially when recalling an anecdote of the same Osho:
A Senior Demon was at rest when some petit demons were running towards Him in a mess. My Lord! My Lord! Protect us. A Budha has awakened. The Demon was calmy. My Lord! You don’t listen to Us. A Buda has born. Bah! He said. Do not worry! He soon will pass away and his disciples will do our work…and better!
… But it is not absolute non sense if studied via semiotics. What makes sense is to take this presumptive parallelism in the correct frame and in the just equidistance.
Other point:
It is not news for us, yoga, meditation or martial arts practitioners/instructors, the fact that when devoted to these practices for a time, some students can get certain disorders related to chakra or kundalini. Sometimes followers of some gurus ask for help and they do not receive response. There are therapists that speak of techniques which could help to those. Once someone told to me of 'the water meditation' or the 'water breathing' I do not remember very well. Has anyone some information of these to share? The subject is important since there are researchers like Professor Francis Lefebure posing that kundalini related desorders are not natural but a matter of a bad regimen, the misapplication of a technique. And they propose modern means like neurotechnology, phosfenismo, and so on claiming to get results without risk. Others like Ravindra Kumar have some recommendations for an integral regimen which not comes to a syndrome.
These are just some points I would like to introduce to this interesting exchange.
Finally, thanks to Peter who recommends us the books of the Himalayan Academy. I have just given them a glance and feel the same: their reading is a must.
Yoga Vidya
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